… “The sincerity”—from Imus—“seems forced and suspect because he‘s done some version of this” … April 11th, 2007
[SOURCE: 'Hardball with Chris Matthews' for April 10]
DAVID GREGORY, GUEST HOST: Good evening. I‘m David Gregory, in tonight again for Chris. NBC News and CBS radio have suspended radio talk show host Don Imus for two weeks starting April 16, condemning his racist and sexist comments about the Rutgers women‘s basketball team. This morning, Imus appeared on NBC‘s “Today” and again apologized.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON IMUS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I am going to apologize to them and ask them for their forgiveness. I don‘t expect that, and I don‘t think they have any obligation to either forgive me or to accept my apology.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GREGORY: As we mentioned, today the young women at the center of the controversy, the Scarlet Knights, told reporters they will, indeed, meet with Don Imus. Later, we are going to talk with the Reverend Al Sharpton about the controversy and also take a larger look at this incident and what it says about race relations and decency in our country.
But first the background and HARDBALL‘s David Shuster with this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID SHUSTER, HARDBALL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was the announcement from the Rutgers women‘s basketball team that Don Imus had been hoping for.
ESSENCE CARSON, RUTGERS BASKETBALL PLAYER: We have agreed to have a meeting with Mr. Don Imus. This meeting will be a private meeting at an undisclosed location in the near future.
SHUSTER: That means Imus will get an opportunity to explain and apologize in person for the comments he made last week on his broadcast.
IMUS: Oh, some rough girls from Rutgers. Man, they got tattoos and…
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some hard-core ho‘s.
IMUS: That‘s some nappy-headed ho‘s there, I‘m going to tell you that!
(LAUGHTER)
C. VIVIAN STRINGER, RUTGERS WOMEN‘S BASKETBALL COACH: It‘s not about the Rutgers women‘s basketball, it‘s about women. Are women ho‘s? Think about that. Would you have wanted your daughter to have been called that?
PAGE: Yesterday, NBC News announced that the simulcast of Imus‘s radio program on MSNBC will be suspended for two weeks starting next Monday because this week, the show is conducting a charity telethon. Imus reacted this morning on the “Today” show.
IMUS: I think it‘s appropriate, and I an going to try to serve it with some dignity and—a lot of dignity, if I can. I‘ve had a long relationship going back to 1971 with people at NBC and a long relationship with CBS. And when I talked with Phil Griffin last evening and he told me that he was—they were suspending me, I expressed to him that—how I felt about that and accepted it in the spirit in which it was—in which it was rendered.
SHUSTER: But when pressed by Matt Lauer about a pattern of racial humor on his program, Imus was defensive.
IMUS: This is a comedy show. I‘m not a newsman. This is not “Meet the Press.” We don‘t—anything we say—it‘s not an excuse, but context is important. There‘s a difference between premeditated murder and a gun going off accidentally. I mean, somebody still gets shot, but the charges are dramatically different.
SHUSTER: And Imus insisted his comments about the Rutgers team were not intended to be offensive.
IMUS: But it was comedy. It wasn‘t a malicious rant. I wasn‘t angry. I wasn‘t drunk. I wasn‘t stating some sort of philosophy. As I said yesterday morning, I‘m not a racist, I‘m—and I‘ve demonstrated that in my deeds, in my work. And if we can only cite three or four instances in a comedy program…
MATT LAUER, “TODAY”: Well, wait a second, Don…
IMUS: … which is designed to push the envelope over 30 years—you know—what I did is made a stupid, idiotic mistake in a comedy context.
LAUER: Well, let me…
IMUS: I didn‘t open the microphone to say, This is what I think of these Rutgers women.
LAUER: Let me put it this way…
IMUS: Does it mean I should be excused for the remark? Absolutely not.
SHUSTER: Also on the “Today” show this morning, Reverend Al Sharpton, who has called for Imus to be fired.
REV. AL SHARPTON, NATIONAL ACTION NETWORK: What precedent are we setting now, that you can apologize every 10 years when you go over the line and maybe you‘ll get a two-week suspension? I think that this is something that is unhealthy for everyone in America, and he should be fired.
SHUSTER: Despite the joint appearance on the “Today” show, Don Imus attacked Sharpton for declining an invitation to appear on Imus‘s program following an Imus appearance yesterday on Sharpton‘s broadcast.
IMUS: I talked to Reverend Sharpton yesterday for two hours, Matt, and I told Phil Griffin and everybody else that I didn‘t intend—I invited Reverend Sharpton to appear on my program, and he didn‘t have the courage that I had.
SHARPTON: No, I decided I would not…
IMUS: Because I walked—I‘m talking, Reverend Sharpton!
(CROSSTALK)
IMUS: I walked in his studio yesterday, and there were hundreds of people there. And my hands weren‘t shaking and I don‘t get up and run out of the studio every five minutes when the mikes went off. I sat there and I talked to Reverend Horgans (ph) like a man—Reverend Sharpton like a man, and he did not keep his word. I asked him to appear on my program. He said he didn‘t want to appear at the scene of the crime!
SHUSTER: As for Imus‘s request to meet with the Rutgers women…
IMUS: And I am going to apologize to them and ask them for their forgiveness. I don‘t expect that, and I don‘t think they any obligation to either forgive me or to accept my apology.
SHUSTER: The Rutgers players said they would wait to hear what Imus said before making any judgments, but they added that Imus has a lot of explaining to do.
HEATHER ZURICH, RUTGERS BASKETBALL PLAYER: And we were insulted, and yes, we were angry. Worst of all, my team and I did nothing to deserve neither Mr. Imus nor Mr. McGuirk‘s deplorable comments.
PAGE: A few of the players noted that the language used by Imus is used every day by some African-American hip-hop and rap artists. But the players quickly added…
CARSON: But that doesn‘t make it any more right for anyone to say it, not only Mr. Imus, but if I were to say it, it doesn‘t make it any more right. It doesn‘t matter if you‘re African-American or whether you‘re Caucasian, Asian. It really doesn‘t matter. All that matters is that it‘s wrong.
SHUSTER: But will they accept Imus‘s apology?
MATEE AJAVON, RUTGERS BASKETBALL PLAYER: Right now, I cant really say if we—you know, we have come to a conclusion of, you know, whether we will accept the apology. What I can say is that I think this meeting will be crucial.
SHUSTER (on camera): Amidst the ongoing protests against Don Imus and the questions about whether journalists, including those at this network, will continue to appear on his program, Imus today pledged to make changes. He said he would revamp his show, put on more African-American guests and talk more about issues of race.
I‘m David Shuster for HARDBALL in Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GREGORY: David, thank you very much.
We go now to “The Chicago Tribune‘s” Clarence Page and “The Congressional Quarterly‘s” Craig Crawford. Welcome to you both. Thanks for being here.
I want to read a couple of things, Clarence, and then have you respond. Gwen Ifill, a colleague of ours who works for PBS, used to work for NBC News, wrote the following in a very thoughtful op-ed piece in “The New York Times.” Quote, “The sincerity”—and she‘s talking about the sincerity from Imus—“seems forced and suspect because he‘s done some version of this”—these comments, she means—“several times before.”
Next, this is an exchange you had with the I-man on his program back in 2000, and I‘m going to read through it for our audience and for you to see. Imus—this is—you introduced the idea of him taking a pledge here.
CLARENCE PAGE, “CHICAGO TRIBUNE”: Want me to do my part here?
(LAUGHTER)
GREGORY: “I, Don Imus”—Clarence Page—“do solemnly swear,” “do solemnly swear,” “that I will promise to cease all simian references to black athletes,” “that I will promise to cease all simian references”—he repeats it—“a ban on all references to non-criminal blacks as thugs, pimps, muggers and Colt 45 drinkers,” “I promise to do that.”
Clarence Page, you‘re here with us now. There was some laughter in the middle of this, but this was a serious…
PAGE: That was Bernard.
(LAUGHTER)
PAGE: That was Bernard in the background, yes.
GREGORY: This was a serious point you were making.
PAGE: Yes, it was, and I wanted to lighten it up a bit because this is a light show. You know, part of the problem here, David, is that Don‘s successful. He gets it both ways. He‘s a combination shock jock and morning political discussion leader.
GREGORY: Right.
PAGE: You know, he says he is—you know, he is an entertainer, not a newsman, but you know, he…
GREGORY: All right, but the point is…
PAGE: He does both.
(CROSSTALK)
PAGE: And so that‘s why I…
GREGORY: … serious in making this pledge.
PAGE: That‘s why I wanted to get this in the right spirit of the program because at the time, this was the subject of—what, it was Tompaine.com had run a big piece about why are Washington‘s pundits supporting bigotry on Don Imus. They ran a quarter page ad in “The New York Times” op-ed page. And it quoted me saying, Well, I‘m concerned. I‘d like to talk to Don about this…
(CROSSTALK)
PAGE: So that‘s what led to all this.
GREGORY: All right. And now these comments, “nappy-headed ho‘s” is what he called these young women on the basketball team at Rutgers.
PAGE: Right.
GREGORY: Is he a racist or a serial offender, or both? What, in your mind?
PAGE: I like Don Imus personally. I can‘t read his heart and say if he‘s a racist. All I know is he says racist things from time to time. That‘s what I told him back in 2001, as he was telling me he wasn‘t a racist, et cetera. Gwen‘s right. There are echoes in his current series of apologies to what he was saying in 2001, on various other occasions.
Don‘s done some great things for a lot of black folks, for people of color, including me. When my book came out in ‘96, he gave me the kind of promo on the air there during his show that authors hunger for. I have nothing personally against him, but I have certainly been on the air talking about his racially inflammatory humor on the show, him and Bernard. It‘s all part of the package. So this is not new.
Now, you know, my old daddy always said, Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Now that, you know, he‘s gone back on that pledge, I‘m even more troubled than I was before.
GREGORY: Craig Crawford, is it time for Imus to go?
CRAIG CRAWFORD, “CONGRESSIONAL QUARTERLY,” MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST:
Not at all. I don‘t see how that helps anything. I would say this man—you know, in my experience on the show—I‘ve done it nearly 70 times in the last three years—this—his heart is as big as his mouth, and the mouth gets him in trouble, as it has now.
(LAUGHTER)
CRAWFORD: And I think there‘s an opportunity here. I was struck by how these students, these Rutgers students—they were so reasonable and calm and willing to listen and try to understand, hard as it might be for them, what his motivations were. And they are going to meet with him. And tell you the truth, I think a lot of us adults who are talking about this ought to just step back and let these 20-year-olds…
GREGORY: All right, well, so…
(CROSSTALK)
GREGORY: … if this is a positive meeting—I mean, Don Imus—we both know him, we all know him—Certainly sounds contrite to me, that he gets it. This is going to be a tough meeting. Does this gesture mean something important, Clarence?
PAGE: Oh, it means that he has escalated things. And so has the public, in my view. You know, I haven‘t been invited back on the show, by the way, since the pledge, so I can‘t—I haven‘t had further discussions with him.
GREGORY: Do you think that was the reason?
PAGE: Maybe you got my slot, Craig.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
GREGORY: Is that a reaction to that? Did he feel embarrassed by that?
PAGE: I have no idea, you know?
(CROSSTALK)
PAGE: … when he broke some bones on the ranch, I sent him a get well card, but I haven‘t talked to him, though, since I was on the show. And I mean, what‘s important is not whether I‘m on the show or not. I think what‘s important here is the show itself and how it‘s conducted. The fact is, he‘s gotten away with more than a lot of other shock jocks have in terms of—the Greaseman, used to be here in D.C., and various others lost their jobs over just one case like this.
And now finally—you know, he thought he was going to get by with the one apology last Friday. As of Monday, he was apologizing all day long, going to Al Sharpton‘s confessional, if you will. And obviously, you know, for CBS and NBC to drop him for two weeks, it‘s a slap on the wrist in one sense, but the fact that it‘s kind of a slap at all is serious. It shows that there‘s some teeth behind this, as there should be.
GREGORY: But Craig, you feel a little bit differently here. You think that people are overblowing this, that he‘s apologized, that we should move on.
CRAWFORD: I think in the context of this show—I know, as you know say, that much of it is serious commentary. And when they do the sports, as they were doing here, that‘s where you see more to the comedy elements, some of the skits they do. It‘s not just racial. We see jokes about Catholics, about Jewish people, gays, I mean, and my argument would be that when you stifle that kind of speech, when you stifle it, you‘re not dealing with the sentiment behind it. And to actually say someone should be fired for making jokes about this kind of stuff doesn‘t really get us down the road toward discussing what‘s behind it and how—how…
PAGE: I‘m not calling for his firing, but if he were fired, what would happened, Craig?
CRAWFORD: Well, I think he‘d become a martyr and…
PAGE: What would happen, Craig? He‘d get a job someplace else, wouldn‘t he.
CRAWFORD: Yes, probably.
PAGE: Of course he would. Of course he would.
CRAWFORD: And—and…
PAGE: Or he‘d go to satellite like Howard Stern.
(CROSSTALK)
CRAWFORD: … is better off if Imus goes forward, if he gets to know these students, they get to know him. When he takes up a cause, as we all know, he puts his heart into it. I think he will here, not just to save his job, but I think he‘s—I disagree with Gwen. I think his—his remorse is genuine, and I think he will go forward and take up this cause and do some things that will make a big difference, more of a difference than if he were fired.
PAGE: That would be great, but let‘s not feel sorry for Don. I mean, Don Imus is a really—if he wasn‘t as successful as he is, NBC, CBS—you know, well, how about two weeks, Don? I mean, that‘s what it looks like to me. I don‘t see him being severely punished. But I think that he is contrite, and I think he does want to do good. And he has done good with his ranch, with the kids out there who have cancer, autistic kids. All of this…
GREGORY: Is there room for…
PAGE: As I told him, that doesn‘t give you a license to…
(CROSSTALK)
GREGORY: Is there room for him to refashion this program in a way that can heal this wound?
PAGE: Well, I don‘t know if it has to be refashioned necessarily. But I just think you can‘t have it both ways. You know, I think it‘s—the fair thing is for—if you‘re going to try to be a shock jock, you ought to be treated like a shock jock. That‘s what happens. And—but he does bring on great, reputable folks like Craig and various others, you know, who help to give him some credibility, and he helps to expand our audiences and all. You know, everybody wins in that arrangement. But you know, a host should not embarrass people who appear on the show. And when you go and embarrass yourself in this kind of a fashion, he‘s now put people who want to appear on the show on the spot. I understand Cal Ripken‘s dropped out of an engagement…
CRAWFORD: Yes, I—I think—you know, two things. You know,
first, I think, you know, getting into the—you know, the actual words
that he used, he was wrong and he should be punished for that and is being
punished. But I think further discussion as he goes down the road on this
you know, some of these terms, particularly the term “ho,” comes from gangsta rap.
PAGE: That‘s right.
CRAWFORD: And that needs to be condemned…
(CROSSTALK)
PAGE: And it is, too.
CRAWFORD: … and discussed…
PAGE: I just did a column last Sunday I commend to your attention…
(CROSSTALK)
PAGE: … Sharpton has, too, Jesse Jackson…
(CROSSTALK)
CRAWFORD: You know, that is a discussion I think whites and blacks need to have, rather than just saying someone should be fired for having said that. I think to be a racist, you have to hate black people, and I do not believe Don Imus hates black people.
GREGORY: I‘m going to let that be the last word. Thank you very much, to Clarence Page and Craig Crawford.
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One Response
Evorgleb Says:
The whole thing with Imus is crazy. I honestly have very mixed feelings on the whole thing. One of the guys over at Highbrid Nation who actually worked with Imus at WFAN for years wrote a good article talking about Imus’ views on race from the perspective of a minority that was around him every day. You should check it out if you get a chance.
